Why didn't other countries get pissed when we used gas on civilians?
 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/08/m...ill-civilians/

One point that needs to be made, but rarely if ever mentioned, is that in the supposed rationale for US attack on Syria to avenge/prevent claimed civilian deaths by government gas attacks, the US government itself has used similar weapons openly as recently as the FBI/ATF attack on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco Texas in the spring of 1993.

76 men, women and children died in this senseless military style assault which used highly lethal military CS gas as a primary weapon. CS is not a nerve agent and it doesn?t in normal concentrations cause immediate death. But it is highly flammable, persistent and designed to incapacitate targets by causing massive biological reactions including inability to breathe, massive tearing in the eyes, nose bleeds, etc.

The Davidians were totally surrounded, posed no threat to others, and responded with weapons fire only after the ATF/FBI attacked with military style firearms. After the initial government assault was repelled, and after a long standoff, an impatient President Clinton and his Attorney General Janet Reno ordered an all-out military assault on the compound, despite the fact that the only legal justification was a single warrant for David Koresh on unproven charges. The presence of innocent group members was ignored, nor was there any planning for medical aid or fire suppression.

The rest is history. Special military tanks were used to puncture compound walls and insert large quantities of CS gas. CS gas grenades were used from military stores along with 2 metal CS pyrotechnic M651E1 shells. Other pyrotechnic devices and flammable rounds were also fired into the buildings despite known dangers of CS gas ignition and chemical changes to the CS in fires making it even more deadly.

Wikipedia has more details. The video ?Rules of Engagement? makes it clear that this was a deliberate effort to kill those inside.

In the run up to the Iraq invasion and now with Syria, United States officials loudly wailed about these regimes ?killing civilians? with poison gas. Despite lack of hard evidence for such use in these countries, there is no doubt that President Clinton and Reno approved this exact same tactic.


While some victims were shot, most died from burns or asphyxiation as a result of the CS gas and the subsequent firestorm created when it was ignited deliberately.

So precedent is clear: the US Empire can use poison gas against peaceful religious dissenters when they do not immediately surrender to heavily armed police forces using military weapons. This is lied about, rationalized and ultimately forgotten, with the dead victims being blamed for their ?suicidal actions.?

Timmy McVeigh already got mad about that

I'm from the U.S., ex-police officer, and we shouldn't be policing other nations. If they want to blow themselves up, gas themselves, or whatever it is that they do over there. Let um do it, as long as it is over there.

This is what is so fucked up. This happens everyday in the American ghetto's, do we get pissed that they are killing each other, and this is in our own country?

Point made.

Why "ex" ?

You are comparing tear gas to sarin gas? Seriously?

Because he was too fucking stupid to know the difference between tear gas and Sarin? That would be sufficient reason to fire him.

Being a police officer doesn't pay six figures, and I am too stupid to make 7 figures...

wtf does my post have anything to do with either gas?

http://justinsomnia.org/images/occup...udents-big.jpg

you could call this torture

..........................

It's the way it was used, I don't know if you have ever been exposed to tear gas, I have.

Most everyone that goes thru military training does!

Any asshole that would use it on children should have there nuts removed with a sledge hammer.

End result, it killed people, dead is dead, that's the comparison

I agree. I'm stunned the stupidity here. At what point in time do we compare tear gas to sarin gas? I'm former military; I went through the gas chamber; I sucked up all of the cs gas... I'll tell you what, it clear out my fucking sinuses (thick snot running from my nose to the ground), but oddly enough I'm still here and there was no temporary damage no less permanent damage.

Sarin gas on the other hand can kill someone in sixty seconds.

Are you really former military?

I guess if the shoe fits, wear it . . . even if I wasn't directing my initial comment to you.

And V; are you really trying to suggest there is no difference between the two?

If there was ventilation, then there is a difference, the FBI first pumped CS into the buildings, then fired so many 40mm ferret CS rounds into the building after that, they ran out and asked for more CS rounds.
I went thru the same training, the fire training with the black smoke was worse, but even that wasn't the hardest training I went thru, remember the dive tower you asked me about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

On September 28, 2000, Prof. Dr. Uwe Heinrich released a study commissioned by John C. Danforth, of the United States Office of Special Counsel, to investigate the use of CS by the FBI at the Branch Davidians' Mount Carmel compound. He concluded that the lethality of CS used would have been determined mainly by two factors: whether gas masks were used and whether the occupants were trapped in a room. He suggests that if no gas masks were used and the occupants were trapped, then, "...there is a distinct possibility that this kind of CS exposure can significantly contribute to or even cause lethal effects

Let me remind everyone that no illegal guns were found after the buildings burned down

Don't care.

You look at it as "big bad government" and I look at it like "a bunch of fucking lunatics are sucking down my tax dollars". This dragged out for three months. At a certain point in time, our government had to take action.

Still not caring. Two decades this later this is STILL an acceptable method of law enforcement. It's tear gas.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but there is no doubt that these people were armed - they shot and killed multiple officers in the original raid.

Law enforcement had both search warrants and arrest warrants. They had plenty of reason to investigate; They were shot at during the raid, and returned fire. There were kids in the compound, yet they were shooting at police?

Don't kid yourself here - this wasn't a group of Christians praying twice a week. This was an armed military compound full of armed lunatics who opened fire on police officers legally serving multiple warrants.

Brett, listen carefully here... If the police come to your house with a warrant, and you shoot them, they will not only shoot back but eventually they will force you out of your house using CS gas. It doesn't matter if it's one or two people in a house or thirty people in a compound, it's standard operating procedure.

While I am thinking of it... I don't think CS gas is flammable.

It doesn't mention it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

I am pretty sure when I went through the gas chamber there was an open flame cooking the stuff... They used a bunson burner to light it up.

http://www.military.com/pics/100604_gas-4.jpg

Did you guys swap spit in the shower after that?

They never found illegal guns, the warrant was served at the end of a gun barrel. They were raided. That's not how you serve a warrant.

23 kids died!

Autopsy photographs of other children locked in what appear to be spasmic death poses are consistent with cyanide poisoning, one of the results produced by burning CS gas

FBI spokesmen denied (even under oath) the use of any sort of pyrotechnic devices during the assault; however, pyrotechnic Flite-Rite CS gas grenades had been found in the rubble immediately following the fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege


And Richard, I don't care what their religion was, they have a right to what ever religion they want, kind of a guarantee of the constitution last I heard. That warrant was mainly for what they thought was a meth lab they said he had, even though Koresh had dismantled the lab and gave it to the Sheriff when he took charge long before the warrant was issued. That warrant was given out because of disgruntled ex members from 6 years prior!

So what happens if you just happened to be in that country and you got gased?

Oh well, who give a fuck about you, right?

Arguing with a patriot is like arguing with a relgious zealot. No matter what you say, how much common sense you make or bonifide proof you provide for your argument, they will always say you are wrong.

In the end even the most addicted crack addict is far more reasonable when discussing their addictions.

Yep, similiar to what I experienced in basic training in Cornwallis, Nova Scotia. They burned it in a tin pie plate over a bunson burner in the gas hut.

I didn't find it all that bad. We were marched in with gas masks on...then told to remove them. I breathed shallow and kept my eyes squinted enough with tears to keep the worst of the gas out. When we finally exited the gas hut, I sat down on the grass and lit a smoke. :1orglaugh

How did you survive it?

I was an adult
I had a mask for the better part of it.
it was well ventilated and when I couldn't take it any longer, I could leave the building.
I was one of the last people to leave.

I had all sorts of training in the Navy that would freak out most

The warrant was served like any other warrant; Police showed up and announced "We have a warrant". In fact, they had multiple warrants, some search warrants and some arrest warrants. They were greeted with gunfire. At that point, the reason the police were there is irrelevant - Warrants or not, we now have people shooting at police officers.

Brett, apply common sense here: If police show up on your doorstep with a warrant and you shoot at them, the police are going to evict you by force if required. The Police aren't going to walk away and say "Opps, sorry".

And your point is what?

My guess is that these nut jobs knew the end was coming, and set fire to the place at three different locations.

They do have the right to practice any religion they want. This has nothing to do with religion; They had multiple warrants for multiple reasons and multiple arrest warrants. The police had valid reasons to be there; No one had a valid reason to shoot at law enforcement.

76 people died, not because of the police, but because they decided to get into a gun battle with police.

There is no debate on this. Police served a warrant and were shot at.

They had a warrant for a drug lab that had been turned into the sheriff before the warrant was issued. They also had a warrant for illegal guns, when none existed.

They did not announce themselves. The ATF did not announce they had a warrant, they raided the complex and had their blood type written on their arms, does that sound like the normal way of serving a warrant? They sent in a Dog Team to kill the dogs at the complex, is that the way you serve a warrant?

Richard, please read before commenting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
Because right now you haven't a clue

pyrotechnic Flite-Rite CS gas grenades cause fires!

You only believe what you want to believe in.

"The group was suspected of weapons violations and a search and arrest warrant was obtained."

The group was suspected of weapons violations, they had a search warrant, and they also had an arrest warrant.

They didn't? The ATF just walked up and started shooting?

I'm pretty confident they did announce themselves.

I did read this, I even quoted it above. The first rule of GFY is that you research what you are about say so you don't look like an ass. You usually fail to research anything and just blindly re-post some bullshit from a slanted website.

This is very simple Brett. People in town had multiple reasons to be concerned about a group of well armed people. A series of newspaper articles were published about how they were abusing children, and how their leader thought he had the right to have "one hundred and forty wives". A former Former Branch Davidian members told law enforcement they had been modifying AR15, automatic gun fire had been heard at the compound, and a UPS driver reported more suspicious activity at the compound including handguns, grenades, and gun power. The local sheriff called ATF in for help.

When law enforcement rolled up - and I am sure they rolled up in force being as they were out numbered five to one against what they already knew was a well armed group of people, the Branch Davidians shot at police officers.

Again, it's very simple - common sense really. Law enforcement had plenty of reasons to have multiple warrant, and when they shot at police officers the potential minor firearm violations were the least of their crimes.

Comparing tear gas to sarin? I can go buy tear gas at the local store!

As usual, Vendzilla = idiot

The ATF rolled up with there blood types on their sleeves, does this sound like a way to serve a warrant against a place that has children? Really Richard?
Koresh came out of the compound all the time, this was a huge FUCK UP

They didn't even use ATF vehicles, they rolled up in personal vehicles
So you are ok with FBI agents using military grade CS gas against children in a closed building, you are a piece of shit!

hahahaah they dont care about chemical weapons, only oil and new wars

i've research the waco tragedy extensively.

i can fully see vendzilla's point.

there is no question that the main structure was hot boxed with tear gas with children in there.

that dude makes $120k a year

and, because of picture, will make 120k per year for the rest of his life, with never having to work again

Apparently a guy claiming he was God fucking 12 and 13 year old girls is ok in Vendzilla, the public masturbators book.

A whacko defending a whacko in Waco.

here's a way to look at the point of the op.

the article he linked and quoted makes the comparison to point out the hypocrisy of the usa attacking syria.

right or wrong. the fact that the media can and does make the comparison means the usa will not emerge the good guys for bombing syria.