Paul Markham

Just watched a fascinating program on the 90s Internet bubble, it's growth and burst.

The story was how sites were starting up like there was no tomorrow and people were rushing in as if it was a gold rush, creators and backers. Yet the vast majority of the sites simply were not delivering what the customer wanted. Then in 2000 the bubble burst.

Some who were delivering what the customer wanted survived and grew, plus small little start ups grew as well. By delivering a good user experience and loyalty. They focused on the customer first. No need to name them we all know them and use them.

Online porn concentrated on affiliates and driving traffic, often to the expense of the customer. Now he's made his choice and walking away from us.

Could we of ever withstood the competition with free porn, in what ever guise it took?

Big question.

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wehateporn

A quick


for answers

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papill0n

I dont know if you have noticed this paul but your opinion isnt taken very seriously here.

DamianJ

It's sweet that in 2012 he has finally learned that providing an excellent customer experience is A Good Idea though.

I bet you if he hadn't retired he'd be taking off those annoying bandwidth throttles and stop doing content rotation that turns legit customers into pirates.

If only there was a time machine. I bet he'd do a lot differently. That must be galling.

CYF

so what was the documentary called?

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shake

Free is hard to compete with, but some of us are doing it everyday

raymor

Yeah I'd say Hostgator (paid) beat geocities (free).

Hotmail was unbeatable because it was free. Until Yahoo mail was king. Until Gmail smacked them down.

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Paul Markham

Well I always knew it, which is why I provided a great product.

I'm talking about paysites with 30 scenes, paying more for dumping people on a site than for the product they will buy, cheating customers, scamming them and even down to the annoying thing of clicking on picture to see a gallery and getting traded to another site.

We would of all done something different, you would of picked up a camera and shot crappy porn to earn what we did.

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ButtersStotch

I would love to watch that. What's the name of the doc Paul?

AllAboutCams

so when was the burst?

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kane

There are two great docs everyone in an online business should watch. One is called Startup.com and the other is called e-Dreams.

Both show startup internet companies from their birth until their death. What it shows is that back then people didn't care about profit. Their idea was to start a site, get users, go public and cash in.

There is also a book called Boo Hoo about the creation and death of boo.com. It was written by the guy that started the company and he is pretty honest about what went wrong. They sold clothes and one of the main things they did wrong was pay all the return postage for any returns. What they quickly found was people would order 20 items, keep 2 of them and send the rest back so any profit from those sales was eaten up in postage.

Paul Markham

Download. The story of the Internet.

Been fascinating so far. It's going through the growth of companies online as well as the Internet.

If a Tube offers a better user experience than paid, it's impossible. Let's look at the pluses and minuses of paying for porn.

Paysites Small sites with content often shot on the cheap by someone with little skill.

Tubes Huge sites with lots of videos and a big selection.

Paysites Risk of getting ripped off.

Tubes No risk to getting ripped off.

Paysites You have to give up an email address and risk being spammed by porn sites.

Tubes No problems getting spammed, unless you give them your email address which isn't required.

Paysites Risk of your wife seeing a porn membership on your credit card.

Tubes No risk.

Paysites Customer has to cancel membership.

Tubes No membership to cancel.

Paysites 30 day membership you may only used 5-8 days a month.

Tubes Anytime anywhere, they are ready for you.

Paysites You pay join, find out there's nothing inside of much value. You lost $30.

Tubes Pornhub doesn't have what you want, try Youjizz or one of of the others.

Paysites They have HD.

Tubes Obviously HD isn't enough to convert more than 1 in 1,000s to pay. The consumer doesn't give it that much importance or more would buy off tubes.

And there are more. Free is way down on the line. Simply put Tubes do what Google, Amazon, Ebay and many more of the great Internet sites, do. They concentrate on the user and provide a great customer experience. The traffic comes and then they sell to it. We sold to it more than we inspired them to come and buy and keep buying. We thought they would buy if we advertised enough.

Now all they do is go to sites that do little more than advertise.

Yes go and argue that Google is free, but the reason the owners are billionaires and none of you are even close to it, is they concentrated on the user and the traffic followed. And all they had was a search engine to get them to come, we had porn!!!!

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DamianJ

Every review I read of your site has customer comments complaining about your bandwidth throttle and rotating content. You give legit customers a bad experience, driving them to piracy.

Paul Markham

So what's the solution?

Take off the BW throttle and give them 800 videos they can download in a month?

Open lots of small sites so all they get for their $30 is 50 scenes?

Keep it as I have it and explain to the complainers that they have to stay three months plus before they will see it all and we throttle BW and install auto download blockers to stop people getting 800 scenes for $30?

I agree in a perfect world people wouldn't want to download the whole site while on a $3 trial. Sadly we live in the real world where they do. What did you do with your sites?

Still again you focus everything on the smallest part of our business. Because you know if you focus on the mainstay of our business you would fail.

Today Erasmo posted the thread about Score celebrating their 20th anniversary, we sold them content for most of the 20 years.

PRO sold to them since early 80s to 2010.

Sold to LFP since the beginning of Barely Legal till 2009.

Galaxy, N&S, Goldstar, Sullivan, Crescent, Swank and many more for decades and not at $500 exclusive for a set and video.

Then the stores. First one opened around 2000 and they're still open. Look around at some Teen sites to see our content everywhere. Remember non exclusive is saturated. because it sells so often. As for our style of shooting, that's all over the teen sites.

So back to paysites.

We could get a girl in shoot 60 odd videos and sets of her then sell it for $30.

http://www.thebestporn.com/review/clubcamilla/

We could do it this way 39+ Videos (approx. 5 min. each)

http://www.thebestporn.com/review/totallyamanda/

Maybe 3wayscash should tell the surfer exactly how many videos he will be getting before he buys. Like we do.

805 videos

2337 image sets.

Incidentally, most of the comments on those reviews are lies. We took 90 days to rotate the content not the 30 days they are saying. I suspect you might be responsible for some. You do know so much about them.

Still the sites were a nice little bonus on top of the other income streams.

You missed the train to the port to get on the boat. you still work to pay the rent.

My day so far was, getting up at 8.30 to a face very happy to see me and his tail wagging frantically. Then coffee, breakfast while watching TV for an hour. Logged on and checked the mail, went for a walk to the gardening centre, village for a coffee, bought some meat that's now cooking. Back home for a cup of tea then here poking fun at you.

After lunch might have a nap in the garden before Eva gets home. Might even do some gardening.

Won't I won't be doing is working for a living. Like you have to.

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Paul Markham

I see this thread on the board today and is it a sign?

https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1070621

OK we have a few praising their own sites and a few saying they did well.

Yet has the surfer realised that dating sites that feed off from porn sites are simply not delivering the goods anymore? Did the sites screw up by not delivering on the promises?

Of course they would suffer from the free dating sites that live off mainstream advertising. Still who will pay for an awful service when the free option actually performs better?

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DamianJ

Of course.

Not sure why you don't get this...

Bandwidth throttles were invented for when bandwidth was expensive. It's not now, so why on earth would anyone make their pay site a worse experience than a tube site?

If you manage to persuade anyone to ever join your site, you should treat them like a prince, as the documentary you watched about the internet 10 years ago told you.

You should not treat them worse than piracy sites.

Even you can see that, surely?

Paul Markham

The episode today was again very good. It covered People Power and high lighted why some sites succeed while others fail. By focusing on the giants, still it made obvious sense. The guys who succeeded understood the customer or consumer and filled their needs. Sounds obvious, then what made us think otherwise so often?

Understanding how to get men to look at porn is something a 12 year old can do. Understanding how to sell, create or market to those who will buy, is something few in online porn get. Those that do are self evident in their success. A remark Damian made about me at the beginning of his hate campaign and the reason he started encapsulates the thinking of him and many.

Apparently during a dinner with about 8 men, in Amsterdam during one of the shows. I was talking about fucking girls, models, 3somes with Eva and other things. Damian will remind us in detail. This conversation shocked him so much it put him off his meal and he has used this incident to taunt me ever since. And other have picked it up labeling me as a dirty old man. Not something I'm ashamed of, as before I was a dirty middle aged man.

Yet he and others use it to insult me!!!!!

It's like insulting a butcher because he eats meat. Being a dirty minded man, I understand the consumer and can supply the product other dirty men will buy.

Just a personal episode to make a point.

To produce, distribute and sell a product well, you need an array of skills. Know your customer, product, market, vehicle for distribution and to close a sale. All these things, which can be broke down even further to get more success, are essential. Knowing how to get men to look at porn and to get 5% to click on a banner and then 1% of them to buy isn't a great skill compared to.

Knowing what your customer wants, how to produce it, how best to market the product, the Internet and finally closing on the sale.

Then above all being able to finance the above. Because it's expensive done right as so few have all those skills the need to hire the right people will cost money.

Many of us don't understand our customer a dirty men 18 to 80. Few have a clue what's a good or poor product, just look at all the "She's Hot" praises given to girls who are clearly not. Or praise for sites that simply don't deserve it. Our marketing failure is obvious.

Yet look around at the truly successful sites online. They all realise what People Power is and deliver the right product, correctly and sell to customers. If I have to name them, practice flipping burgers for your CV.

Damian, buy the content off me, put up your own site and show me how it's done. Or tell 3wayscash to give out 805 videos and 2337 image sets. For 33.55 Euros for a 90 day membership. Do they have that much and how much does it cost to get 800 videos from all their sites?

What was it on one site 39+ Videos (approx. 5 min. each)? I think you had best educate your client first. Or with all your superior knowledge, show us how it's done.

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DamianJ

So you *do* think it is a good idea to provide paying customers with a worse experience than a tube?

Amazing.

Paul Markham

Like you, seems we both think the same.

Totally Amanda has 39 videos @ 5 minutes each. 3 hours 15 minutes for $46.70 = $14.37 per hour of video.


Club Camilla has 66+ Videos (min. per video varies) so assume it 5 -10 minutes 8 hours 15 minutes for $30 = $3.64 per hour of video.

Paul Markham Teens has 805 videos approx 15 minutes each 201 hours 15 minutes for $41.77 for 90 days = 21 cents per hour of video.

So who do you think is giving the worse bang for his buck?

And before you talk about my stuff being crap. Read the comments and scores.

http://www.hardsextube.com/video/611503

http://xhamster.com/movies/265560/pa...threesome.html

Your problem is 3wayscash delivers a worse experience than a TGP site.

No wonder 3wayscash don't throttle BW, 2 GB a day would be more that enough to download the lot.

Get 3wayscash to offer the same deal as we do, 21 cents an hour and I will listen to you.

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Paul Markham

So back to the series and what we can get from it.

What was very evident was the companies who have survived and made the big bucks online are few, compared to those who crashed and burned and the small ones. The bosses largely understood and respected their users, delivered the product demanded and kept innovating. They weren't in it to "get rich quick" even though some got immensely wealth, Craig who runs Craiglist.com and the owner of Wikipedia aren't driven by money. Listening to the bosses of Ebay, Amazon, etc it became clear they were surprised to shocked at how it took off.

How we set up online porn is largely a contrast. People thinking it was easy to make money in porn with a "get rich quick" attitude. Little knowledge of the customers, his needs and a lot less respect. The belief was "If we drive enough traffic, someone will buy something." The idea of having something the customer really wanted wasn't that important. Except for the exceptions.

Bangbus, Alsscan, Perfect Gonzo, Sapphic Erotica, Met-Art, etc. All had a product the customer wanted to buy. No sniping at the list, if you don't get what I mean. Get out of the business.

Affiliates only need to look at how much traffic it took to get a sale on site A compared to a similar style/niche site B to know one site had something the other didn't. What that was, was a "hook" reeling in the customer. The samples, tour, etc made the customer want to buy more than a site that was just another cloned site thrown together and put up.

The day the price level of BW and hosting crashed below what made giving content away and selling ad space to sites that had the little extra or were not based on pre-recorded porn more profitable or easier than paysites. We were doomed to years of dwindling returns. Because a Tube site meets the needs of the consumer more than a paysite does.

Years of scamming, stealing, cheating, lying and simply disappointing customers with sites that don't meet their needs. Have made Tubes better for so many of them today that people are leaving and closing by the day.

So I will tell you what's king in business most of the time. CONTENT. The whole thing, the complete site that the customers are buying. And getting that spot on, is far harder than submitting galleries to The Hun.

Which shows you the truth of what I say. What made The Hun list a gallery? The content.

What made people look at it crating traffic? A line of text so not hard.

What made people click on the banner? The content.

What made a surfer buy after looking at the tour? The content.

What made him stay a member or come back to the site later down the line? The content.

The content met the customers needs and provided a good user experience. Like Google, Ebay and FB. And if FB try to monetise the site to meet the share price, the customer will go elsewhere. He or she isn't a click or traffic, they are people and no one controls them. Pornhub might have 20 million surfers a day on their site, but it doesn't control them. The surfers will go elsewhere the moment PH disappoints them or a better site lures them away.

Even piracy delivers a better user experience than buying, the "free" part is a small part.

The moral of this post is;

If you want to survive the customer is the best person to please.

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DamianJ

No. I think making the surfers' experience worse than a porn tube is bad.

You think, in 2012, rotating content and throttling their downloads is a good idea.

I think that is a bad idea.

No wonder the internet passed you by and you are just now learning about what happened 12 years ago. No doubt shaking your head at the screen and saying "no way".

DVTimes

RE: The Topic

The early bubble burst for several reasons.

The main one being that many firms set up very quick. Rather than growing they presumed that they would have instant sales.

Many thought that by being online it cut out a lot of expence. But many cut out advertising.

So many crashed quick as no one knew about them.

Where big sites today have grown is via advertiments. Some push themselves a lot on TV and have grown this way.

From what I gather the early sites invested mainly in technology, which at the time was expensive. However the cost soon droped. Today I suspect a huge amout simply goes into advertising.

In recent years social network sites such as twitter and facebook have also helped get people to know about sites.

Today one area is data gathering. The smart people get you to fill inb a form. And even if you do not buy from the site they re-sell the dats to an unlimited nomber of firms. I have noticed this week where I went for car insurance and used a price comparison site. After less than an hour I started to get lots of emails about car insurance from firms. I then started to get phone calls too.

The problem with online porn is that your selling fresh air. You cannot hold it or touch it (as you can with a real product (such as with a dvd or magazine). And you can make copies quick. As such it does not have a real value. Its like MP3 music. With records you had a record. It was somthing to look after. But MP3's are just data. I would never feel the same about a mp3 song as the same way I would a record.

Trying to pretend that there is a way to save porn is pointless. Its free.

I use tube sites myself. One site and you can get all you want.

The only way you can save porn is to get the tube sites that have pirated porn shut down. Or at least get the films removed.

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Barefootsies

Why is every Markham thread derailed by the same cast of characters?



I love DamianJ, and think he's a funny mofo. I agree that Markham wears out his soap box from time to time, but this was a thread I can admit I was interested in until it was sidelined with all of the usual bullshit.

We get it. Paul can be annoying. He's old and out of touch. But occasionally, he does provide some interesting topics.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

jimmycooper

I somehow thought this thread was going to be about The Industry Standard and Pets.com.

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Paul Markham

Because he's an idiot. If he thinks our paysites are bad for the surfer, what does he think of the ones he markets?

This thread is about customer satisfaction. And it's now clear that no matter how much you advertise, if the product hasn't delivered customer satisfaction. It won't last. I see some still cling to the "If you dump enough surfers onto a site, it will sell." WRONG.

Back to The Hun. In it's prime we all knew the problems with getting accepted and making money from a gallery on The Hun. The gallery had to be good, still not enough. If the site didn't deliver customer satisfaction, often the BW bill would surpass the money made. Alsscan had a banner and galleries listen on The Hun all the time.

Similar with a Tube site. Getting a clip onto one of the big ones, isn't rocket science. Getting enough people to like it enough to go to the sites is, getting some of them to like the tour is harder. Ultimately getting them to stay for longer than a month is often the toughest. Same goes for an advert, getting one on Pornhub is easy. Getting enough surfers to buy off the ad and turn a profit, is bloody hard.

Being old and in touch. I can tell you it always was this way, still is and will always be this way.

Yes the more traffic you get, assuming it's not total crap, the more sales you make. Paying to get that traffic needs conversions/retentions above the cost. Still as I illustrated, getting traffic onto a sample is the easy part, getting people to click the link and buy is the tough part.

BF are you a success because you can get clips on sites or because the surfers like what you shoot? Because getting clips on a clip site isn't brain surgery?

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atom

+1 - I to thought this was going to be an interesting thread and then it went totally off topic with a pissing match as usual. Pretty lame as it had potential.

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DVTimes

Put Damian on ignore like me.

I am not sure why he has not been banned. All he does is flame threads. If he does not like Paul, why can he just not post in his threads. Its a real shame.

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Barefootsies

That is a complicated answer Paul. A lot comes with bitter experience, and learning from it.

1. I listen to my members and patrons. I have encouraged feedback from the start.
2. I developed my own niche traffic over some 15 years in this industry. I do not rely on others.
3. When 2008 bitch slapped this industry (i.e. credit cards), I diversified into hosting and software.
4. I expanded my porn footprint, also part of diversity I supposed, investing in new niches.

Things could get a lot worse than they were in 2008, or than they are now, and I would still be able to make a comfortable living off of JUST my foot fetish empire alone. However, if anything, 2008 taught me I needed to expand and become more diversified so that if something should happen again (like the credit crunch) I am not solely vested in one thing (i.e. porn/online) where I can be crippled by forces I can't control. Same as those guys in real estate, stock market, etc. learned I am sure.

I suppose you could call all of this a part of the "adapt or die" mantra. I simply call it good business sense. Learn from your mistakes, apply what you have learned, continue to build your empire on a foundation of stone versus sand.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

DVTimes

Reasons to use a tube site: free. all you want in one place. free. instant. free. one day you can look at gangbang, the next lesbian. free. not having to spend ages downloading. free. not having to fill your hardrive with content. free. less chance your wife will find out as you have no credit card statments. free. you can watch on some smart phones. free. if you do not like a film you just go to somthing else. free. new stuff each day. free.

Reasons not to use a tube site: none

Reasons to join a paysite: so you can download all the content and upload it to tube sites. join then ask the biller for your cash back (so its free). join and sell the password.

Reasons not to join a paysite: it costs money. it takes my time to log in. i have to dowload the content. i can see it free on tubesites anyway. do you realy think i do not know about tube sites? in my country porn is illigall so i am glad i get it free on tube sites. most sites do not have much content. some sites are just solo girl sites and i have seen her nude already in the free tour.

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DamianJ

I don't really think Paul suddenly learning about what the rest of us knew 12 years ago is an interesting topic. His other topics of conversation are saying that he used to get 3k for a shoot, that free porn is bad and about his fake retirement.

But you guys knock yourself out talking about that with Paul and DVTimes, the fraudulent, scamming content thief if it makes you feel good.

Inter-Sex

Paul, without joking this time, but you really shouldn't post those url's here,
with you throttlebox string included, you'd better take that out next time.

Just my 2 Cents.

~ Renaldo,

Paul Markham

Tonight's episode was again great, covered Steve Jobs.

His first computers were flops, the Lisa and early Macintosh versions didn't sell and he left Apple and created Pixar as we know it today. From the success there, he returned to Apple and started to concentrate on producing what consumers wanted and with these products created the mystique we all know today.

It was helped by advertising, still that was just the cream on the top. Which is why today the amount of advertising required today to get people waiting outside stores over night to be the first to get the latest version is minimal. In fact the media does it for free.

Again it re-inforced the point, ultimately customer satisfaction is what makes the difference. Because his first few computers were advertised, people just didn't buy them.

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DVTimes

Today we have generations who presume porn and music is free.

Its like trying to sell the idea of black and white TV to people. Its just not going to happen. Things move on. You cannot turn back time.

Why not try to sell VHS recorders while your at it.

There are kids today who will never know what a c90 tape is. You could try to sell them on the idea of listening to music on tapes, but I suspect you will have no luck.

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Paul Markham

Done.

Damian is back on my ignore list. Please contribute because waiting for piracy or free porn to disappear, isn't going to save this industry.

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DVTimes

bump for paul.

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FreeHugeMovies

The movie is startup dot com right?

Socks

I think everything has a lifespan, which was/is highly accelerated at the beginning of such a dramatic change like the internet has been. Not every company was designed to last forever, and lots have already had their time up and down.

garce

Really? Why, oh why.

This thread is now the poster child of why I will continue to post bat-shit insane comments at GFY.

You are all fucking useless. Not one single person here has an original idea. You're going to milk your cash cow until Google decides to shut off your source of traffic, then you're all going to say:

"This sponsor doesn't pay! They used to pay when I had good Google traffic, but now I'm broke." Then you'll blame CCBill for your failure and fade into obscurity - which is exactly where you belong.

Colmike9

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Jim_Gunn

"would of'" twice in one sentence, LOL!

papill0n

PROVIDED

its 2012 you brain dead fuck.

what you provided in 1996 is virtually worthless in 2012

enjoy

papill0n

same agenda as all your threads

a lot of hypotheticals and even more of you telling us how good you were 'back int he day'

youve got troll of the year monkey - youve reached the peak lol

Paul Markham

I'm starting to think for selling porn online as most know it, this is true.

The problem isn't coming up with an original idea. It's coming up with one that has wide appeal and will make money.

Leaving out Dating and Cams, which will both suffer from the free model. What's left to try?

Live 24/7 sex shows will appeal if done right. The problem is doing it right will cost a lot and the ROI is unlikely to make it work.

Moving up to a far higher quality of porn will work. Not just the Met-Art level other levels as well where the performers really connect with the viewers. Then spending a lot of money to keep it off piracy sites and creating sample videos that really capture a surfers imagination and generate the desire to get more of this and only this porn. That will work for a few. The problem is there are very few who can produce that kind of porn. Samples of this are most evident in the "Gonzo" niche. Sadly characters like Buttman, Ed Powers, Ben Dover are few and far between.

Met-Art style appeals to some, still a limited market. Every site that copies them will be sharing their traffic. A little will be created but not to the ratio to support a lot of sites.

Introducing real passion into a scene is probably the easiest route. Watch the movie No Strings Attached, some of the HBO series and copy the love scenes and introduce real passion. The style of sex most scenes have today is easy cheap and done to death. It's not that it doesn't sell, it does. But with it being all over the Tubes and piracy sites and countless paysites, the demand to an individual site is small and has to again fall back on the huge numbers of traffic to get a sale.

For more on the series. https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#h...w=1280&bih=766

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DTK

Gotta say it. There's a ton of sense in this post

I know paysite operators won't like it, but try to read without prejudice.

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DTK

Follow up because i cant edit my last post.

Honest paysite operators and affiliates can send a thank you card to card-banging fuckface operations for some of this. They destroyed any trust for lots of people who would have been willing to pay for access to a good site.

Sorry if i'm stating the very very very obvious

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Paul Markham

However!!!

There are others who're deserve blame.

Affiliates who sent card bangers traffic.

Paysite owners who spent 50% sending traffic and 5% on the product. Play with the figures, the principal is still there.

Affiliates who sent the above traffic.

Sponsors with sites that didn't live up to their claims.

Affiliates who sent traffic to any site that didn't live up to their claims.

Sponsors with small sites.

Those who thought all it took to create good porn was a digital camera.

Those who thought content producers were less valuable than affiliates. Or should earn less.

This is a very valid point. The accusation is that offline porn didn't understand the online porn. They did. They understood fans of "Buttman" could get 300 scenes for $30 instead of buying 5 scenes for $30. At anytime an online porn company could of walked into an offline porn producers office and made an offer he couldn't refuse.

Yes I know I keep saying our main markets were worth $3,000 a scene. Still if a porn site had come to any one of us and made an offer to pay a competitive price for us to produce for them. We would of. Not just me, Suze Randal down to me. Truth is the big sponsors were more interested in buying from someone who had just picked up a camera.

Same goes for offline missing the boat. We didn't we were on a ship that was sailing very nicely and feeding our children. All online needed to do was "Show us the money" to get us to change ships.

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Add those doing cross sales, without the customer 101% aware of it, and the affiliates sending them traffic to cash in one the scam.

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Cherry7

[QUOTE=DVTimes;18993818]Reasons to use a tube site: free. somthing else. free. new stuff each day. free.

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Negativity and criticism seems to be what the cool kids do, and they don't smile much either!

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MySweetEbony