NKorea severs all ties with SKorea "ordered its 1.2 million military to get ready for combat" - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

Sly · 05-25-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Speaking of countries having "the numbers", didn't I hear on the news that Iraq had like the 4th largest army in the world at the time of the gulf war(s)? Lots of personell, very little in the way of modern equipment, weapons, or training.

I'm with Sly, I too would take training and equipment over numbers any day. In this day and age Equipment and training are everything. Not sure how WWII got brought into it, just ONE of today's carriers could have anihilated the Pearl harbor attack force and wiped out the entire Japanese fleet. Then sailed to the Mediterranean and cleaned up the Nazis.

To those of you yakking on about how great Russia was in WWII you should really look up the term Lend-lease some time. Russia had the numbers but lacked the materials to fight the kind of war they needed to. The US sent over millions of dollars worth of munitions and materials via this program.

Everyone talks about what the Russians did, yet incredibly and invariably they leave this little detail out of the conversation.

Yes, Iraq had a massive military pre-Gulf.

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 12:43 PM

sortie, I just have to know... do you also consider the "why" details of Pearl Harbor to be irrelevant?

Caligari · 05-25-2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

You said the Hiroshima bomb was a 1 ton bomb.

Where did you "skew" any words?
Claiming it was a 1 ton bomb and now we have 50 megaton bombs
makes no sense no matter how you slice it.

It was a 13-18 Kilo ton bomb!

The only way to possibly call it a 1 ton bomb is if you thought it weighed a ton.
I mean, 1 ton is 17,999 tons off the mark.

You fucked up, admit and improve.

Google is also your friend;)
Skewed: Distorted or biased in meaning or effect.

But you are right, the way i said it was wrong.

Sly · 05-25-2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

Yes, Iraq had a massive military pre-Gulf.

Not as big as I thought...

545,000 (100,000 in Kuwait)+
649 fighters
4,500 tanks (Chinese Type-59s, Type-69s, & self produced T-55 T-62, about 200 Soviet Union T-72M's Asad Babil)[5]

Still fairly sizable. It was their 500,000 against the world's one million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mber_of_troops

Vietnam has 500,000. Syria has 300,000. Israel has under 200,000.

I would be more afraid of Israel.

sortie · 05-25-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Lost, yes. Amp is just clarifying the why of it. And he's right. Had the US military not been so handcuffed over there that war would have turned out vastily different. For one thing, the VC died by the hundreds of thousands. 1.1 million total, according to the North Vietnamese gov't. The US? By comparison a mere 58 thousand and change. In the Vietnam airspace the kill ratios were staggeringly lopsided in favor of the US.

In this case "we lost" just doesn't quite say it. The fact is the other side had the numbers, the US had the equipment and training but operated on the whim of a group on polititians and a country that wasn't in support of the war. There's very little doubt that had the US gone whole hog in that war, well, it's no mystery what new outcome would have been.

"We lost" yes, but I think in this case the 'why' is an importan consideration. And TheKing is right, those vids you posted were of the S Vietnam military being defeated, not the US military, who had pulled out long before that. Had they not pulled out none of that would have happend, the war would have gone on indefinitely or until the US leaders (and people) decided to step it up and throw 100% of their military effort at it.

Look bro, the Tet offensive, although not decisive for the Vietcong, showed clearly
the the Vietcong had infiltrated the south and were not contained as much as
previous believed.

It was a sign that the war was now in a futile stage because the enemy was now
everywhere.

That's when we launched a "last ditch effort" and killed a bunch of cong so we
could pull out looking good.

The equivalent of the "Iraqi Surge". "Hit them hard, show big force, then get the
fuck out looking as good as we can"; because we can kill them all but we still can't
get the kind of victory we need to make it all make sense.

Facing the truth is just something that my fellow Americans have a real hard time
doing no matter whether it's war, racism, stock market, housing etc..etc...

We are the most stubborn of minds to have ever assemble into a nation.

Peace out.

Shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I give the fuck up.

_Richard_ · 05-25-2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

Not as big as I thought...

545,000 (100,000 in Kuwait)+
649 fighters
4,500 tanks (Chinese Type-59s, Type-69s, & self produced T-55 T-62, about 200 Soviet Union T-72M's Asad Babil)[5]

Still fairly sizable. It was their 500,000 against the world's one million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mber_of_troops

Vietnam has 500,000. Syria has 300,000. Israel has under 200,000.

I would be more afraid of Israel.

probably because they potentially have 7 million reservists lol

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 12:54 PM

My take on N Korea,

If not for their nukes their "army of 1.2 million" would seem a lot less imposing. A lot less. Personnel are still important but these countries with large armies but little to no modern equipment aren't nearly as imposing as their numbers suggest. Today wars are won with planes, carriers, tomahawks, smart bombs, precision air strikes. In the past the boots hit the ground first. Nowadays when the boots hit the ground the war is already all but won.

N Korean leader is a psycho, plain and simple. But he's mostly a sabre rattler. Hopefully it doesn't come to anything more than that but if it does I have no doubt it would be a very grave mistake (for N Korea)....

Every time I view that vid I can't help saying: FuuUUUuuucKKKKkkkkk :D

1.2 million ill-equiped N Koreans (and quite a few of their civilians too I'm sure) would be in for a shit-storm sized world of hurt.

theking · 05-25-2010, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

82nd Airborne.

OOOOHHH BRO!!!!!

Don't talk that shit unless you can back that up!!!

Back it up. Name the most famous street known to all soldiers who ever
served in the 82nd Airborne.

Every soldier knows the street, because almost every soldier went to that street.

Name it.

Or bullshit on you, you never served in the 82nd. No Way!

I assume that you are referring to Gillespie Street and the infamous "combat alley"...which no longer exits. The city fathers cleaned up "combat alley" as well as Hay Street.

theking · 05-25-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

Look bro, the Tet offensive, although not decisive for the Vietcong, showed clearly
the the Vietcong had infiltrated the south and were not contained as much as
previous believed.

It was a sign that the war was now in a futile stage because the enemy was now
everywhere.

That's when we launched a "last ditch effort" and killed a bunch of cong so we
could pull out looking good.

The equivalent of the "Iraqi Surge". "Hit them hard, show big force, then get the
fuck out looking as good as we can"; because we can kill them all but we still can't
get the kind of victory we need to make it all make sense.

Facing the truth is just something that my fellow Americans have a real hard time
doing no matter whether it's war, racism, stock market, housing etc..etc...

We are the most stubborn of minds to have ever assemble into a nation.

Peace out.

Shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I give the fuck up.

The Tet Offensive took place in '68...and was a major defeat for the North...and was over with in a couple of months or less...so we could "then get the fuck out" five years later. Good SITREP there Lt.

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

Look bro, the Tet offensive, although not decisive for the Vietcong, showed clearly
the the Vietcong had infiltrated the south and were not contained as much as
previous believed.

They got napalmed by the thousands. They had little to no equipment versus the US forces who by comparisson had vertually ALL the equipment -- planes, choppers, fighters, massive air transports. The US forces were a quarter the size yet held all the aces, and the casualty numbers reflected that.

The point is there was no "defeat" of the US forces, at least not in any real military sense.

No one's saying there wasn't a defeat of sorts, only trying to clarify it a little because as I said to you earlier, "we lost" in this case doesn't paint the whole picture. I'm not even sure why you chose to argue the point. There was a defeat, yes, but one born out of a withdrawal rather than a straight-up military defeat. The staggering losses on the VC side would indicate an incredibly one-sided fight in most people's books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

The equivalent of the "Iraqi Surge". "Hit them hard, show big force, then get the
fuck out looking as good as we can"; because we can kill them all but we still can't
get the kind of victory we need to make it all make sense.

I can agree with that for the most part, although the political climate of the time of Vietnam was extremely volatile and played a significant role thus it really has to be considered when making such sweeping generalizations as "face it, we lost".

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

Facing the truth is just something that my fellow Americans have a real hard time
doing no matter whether it's war, racism, stock market, housing etc..etc...

We are the most stubborn of minds to have ever assemble into a nation.

I can agree with that as well, but having stubborn opinions isn't something native only to the USA.

Me, I'm just making conversation.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Pretty sure the only reason the Russians are the ones that entered Berlin first is because we let them.

LOL

you made my day man!

Davy · 05-25-2010, 01:22 PM

Man, people are so stupid. Someone is going to push the big red button soon...

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedGlamourStudio

ok, show me US or UK troops on this map - April 16 - 8 May

Don't try to argue with a guy who's only education was (and still is) FOX News "school"

theking · 05-25-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

LOL

you made my day man!

It is a fact that the U.S. made a decision to allow the Russians to take Berlin and the decision was made for multiple reasons.

Andy CHOOPA · 05-25-2010, 01:26 PM

Hope it doesnt go down.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

It is a fact that the U.S. made a decision to allow the Russians to take Berlin and the decision was made for multiple reasons.

That's a very-very stupid statement. The more stupid could be just a person who called it "a fact". I really don't even know how to comment that...

The USA were (an are) tooooooooooooo far away from Europe and it was very hard (actually it's very hard even now) to deliver enough forces (infantry, tanks, weapon, ammunition, fuel, food, backend infrastructure, and so on etc) over the sea to have a real fight.

P.S. You are playing computer games too much IMHO.

chupachups · 05-25-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

It is a fact that the U.S. made a decision to allow the Russians to take Berlin and the decision was made for multiple reasons.

One reason being the Russians would never have cared anyway. They were all longing for junge mädchen.

Buff · 05-25-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael O

This is from 2007:

1. China - 1,700,000
2. India - 1,200,000
3. North Korea - 900,000
4. South Korea - 560,000
5. Pakistan - 520,000
6. United States - 475,000
7. Iraq - 360,000 - Pre-2003, of course.
8. Myanmar - 325,000
9. Russia - 320,000
10. Iran - 320,000

If you have enough canon fodder you can go a long way Russia proved that in WWII and North Vietnam as well.

Do you realize that if you're a one in a million kind of guy in China, that means there are 1500 people just like you?

sortie · 05-25-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

I assume that you are referring to Gillespie Street and the infamous "combat alley"...which no longer exits. The city fathers cleaned up "combat alley" as well as Hay Street.

It took you too long to give those answers, but I will give you the benefit of the
doubt on that one.

Fucking governer bulldozed hay street.

theking · 05-25-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

That's a very-very stupid statement. The more stupid could be just a person who called it "a fact". I really don't even know how to comment that...

The USA was (an is) tooooooooooooo away from the Europe and it was very hard (even now) to deliver enough forces (including tanks etc) over the sea to have a real fight.

I will not respond any further to such ignorance...thank you very much.

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

That's a very-very stupid statement. The more stupid could be just a person who called it "a fact". I really don't even know how to comment that...

The USA was (an is) tooooooooooooo away from the Europe and it was very hard (even now) to deliver enough forces (including tanks etc) over the sea to have a real fight.

Really? You forget about D-Day already?

The operation was the largest amphibious invasion of all time, with over 175,000 troops landing on 6 June 1944. 195,700 Allied naval and merchant navy personnel in over 5,000 ships were involved.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

I will not respond any further to such ignorance...thank you very much.

Thank you very much too and stop playing the games. There was a map posted above. Try to learn it and find the US troops near Berlin. Over 70% of Nazi Germany army was destroyed by USSR. Only the rest 30% are common result of the rest part of anti-Nazi coalition (yes, some party of that % goes to the USA). And this is a FACT.

Ah, thank you again for stopping speaking nonsense

sortie · 05-25-2010, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

They got napalmed by the thousands. They had little to no equipment versus the US forces who by comparisson had vertually ALL the equipment -- planes, choppers, fighters, massive air transports. The US forces were a quarter the size yet held all the aces, and the casualty numbers reflected that.

The point is there was no "defeat" of the US forces, at least not in any real military sense.

No one's saying there wasn't a defeat of sorts, only trying to clarify it a little because as I said to you earlier, "we lost" in this case doesn't paint the whole picture. I'm not even sure why you chose to argue the point. There was a defeat, yes, but one born out of a withdrawal rather than a straight-up military defeat. The staggering losses on the VC side would indicate an incredibly one-sided fight in most people's books.

I can agree with that for the most part, although the political climate of the time of Vietnam was extremely volatile and played a significant role thus it really has to be considered when making such sweeping generalizations as "face it, we lost".

I can agree with that as well, but having stubborn opinions isn't something native only to the USA.

Me, I'm just making conversation.

Everything you said there is true. That's not my point.

Here's my real point in "bro language" :

We lost the football game, we fucking lost. Stop going to the press
and bitching about the running back dropping the ball in the 4th quarter, the bad call
by the ref, the coach calling the wrong defense, the gatorade sucked and the
cheerleaders being too ugly to motivate us to win.

Fuck that!

Just win!

There is way too much whining going on these days.
I want to stop that shit, and start fixing shit and move America up.
Were getting ready to get run over because were so busy making excuses that
we don't have anytime left to make progress.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

Really? You forget about D-Day already?

The operation was the largest amphibious invasion of all time, with over 175,000 troops landing on 6 June 1944. 195,700 Allied naval and merchant navy personnel in over 5,000 ships were involved.

"175,000 troops landing..." - you make me laugh man. Would you like to read something about Battle of Kursk, Battle of Moscow, Battle of Stalingrad, Battle of Berlin and other really big and deadly battles of WWII???

Comparing so-called D-Day with them is like to put an ant against an elephant.

FYI: Try to find out how many men, tanks, guns etc took a part in Battle for Berlin which... was "allowed by 175,000 American troops"

sorry, but the guy who said that phrase has really made my day!

trevesty · 05-25-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Pretty sure the only reason the Russians are the ones that entered Berlin first is because we let them.

Everything else is spot on.

Pretty much. Patton would've been in there quite a few months before Russia was had Allied command not told him to slow down.

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

That's a very-very stupid statement. The more stupid could be just a person who called it "a fact". I really don't even know how to comment that...

Saying "they allowed them" doesn't really tell the whole story, granted, but if you think at some point the Allies didn't sit down and discuss Berlin strategy and such things as "should we beat the Russians to it or let them have it?", you're sadly misinformed.

Another interesting fact is that Stalin sacrificed tens of the thousands of his Russian troops in order to do just that, rush to take Berlin first. As in at all costs.

It's not as if they did something the Allies couldn't. Berlin would have been taken eventually either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

The USA were (an are) tooooooooooooo far away from Europe and it was very hard (actually it's very hard even now) to deliver enough forces (infantry, tanks, weapon, ammunition, fuel, food, backend infrastructure, and so on etc) over the sea to have a real fight.

Pointing out someone else's "dumb statement" and then following it up with one of your own -- not smart. See my earlier post re: Lend-lease. The US not only sent millions of tons of war materials over to Russia during WWII but also mobilized an incredible amount of equipment and armaments in Europe themselves. Pattons tankers weren't riding horses dude. The US sent via lend-lease to Russia to the tune of just over 11 billion dollars worth of war supplies (a couple of hundred billion by today's standards). Canada sent nearly half as much as well, a detail a lot of war buffs skip over.

I'm not trying to diminish Russia's role in the war, just saying that they had help. A lot of it.

Lest we forget.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

P.S. You are playing computer games too much IMHO.

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

Everything you said there is true. That's not my point.

Here's my real point in "bro language" :

We lost the football game, we fucking lost. Stop going to the press
and bitching about the running back dropping the ball in the 4th quarter, the bad call
by the ref, the coach calling the wrong defense, the gatorade sucked and the
cheerleaders being too ugly to motivate us to win.

Fuck that!

Just win!

There is way too much whining going on these days.
I want to stop that shit, and start fixing shit and move America up.
Were getting ready to get run over because were so busy making excuses that
we don't have anytime left to make progress.

It's not a football game Lt.
In order to "make progress" we must not deny or ignore the fuckups of our leaders in the past, because obviously, it's kind of important to the "just win!" that you seek.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

See my earlier post re: Lend-lease. The US not only sent millions of tons of war materials over to Russia during WWII but also mobilized an incredible amount of equipment and armaments in Europe themselves. Pattons tankers weren't riding horses dude. The US sent via lend-lease to Russia to the tune of just over 11 billion dollars worth of war supplies (a couple of hundred billion by today's standards). Canada sent nearly half as much as well, a detail a lot of war buffs skip over.

Man, how much time it has took? Has it been done within a day, week or may be a month? Ah? Now imagine an oversea military operation against multi-million army. Try to follow my logic...

BTW, as about lend-lease, so it wasn't a help. It was a business, and the USSR has paid in GOLD for it. We were dying, you were making money. Not a bad role in the World War. I'm totally agree with you.

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie

Everything you said there is true. That's not my point.

I know your point fully. I don't think anyone here is saying that vietnam wasn't for all intents and purposes a loss. Just clarifying, that's all. No whining. It stands as a shining example that one can win 90+% of the battles and still in effect lose the war.

A loss, yes, but not so much the decisive military loss you seem to want to intimate it was.

theking · 05-25-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Saying "they allowed them" doesn't really tell the whole story, granted, but if you think at some point the Allies didn't sit down and discuss Berlin strategy and such things as "should we beat the Russians to it or let them have it?", you're sadly misinformed.

Another interesting fact is that Stalin sacrificed tens of the thousands of his Russian troops in order to do just that, rush to take Berlin first. As in at all costs.

It's not as if they did something the Allies couldn't. Berlin would have been taken eventually either way.

Pointing out someone else's "dumb statement" and then following it up with one of your own -- not smart. See my earlier post re: Lend-lease. The US not only sent millions of tons of war materials over to Russia during WWII but also mobilized an incredible amount of equipment and armaments in Europe themselves. Pattons tankers weren't riding horses dude. The US sent via lend-lease to Russia to the tune of just over 11 billion dollars worth of war supplies (a couple of hundred billion by today's standards). Canada sent nearly half as much as well, a detail a lot of war buffs skip over.

I'm not trying to diminish Russia's role in the war, just saying that they had help. A lot of it.

Lest we forget.

Dead on...CD...the U.S. dicussed Berlin and for multiple reasons they made the decision (primarily because of Ike's input) to allow the Russians to take Berlin and withhold our forces from taking Berlin.

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

"175,000 troops landing..." - you make me laugh man. Would you like to read something about Battle of Kursk, Battle of Moscow, Battle of Stalingrad, Battle of Berlin and other really big and deadly battles of WWII???

Comparing so-called D-Day with them is like to put an ant against an elephant.

You said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

The USA were (an are) tooooooooooooo far away from Europe and it was very hard (actually it's very hard even now) to deliver enough forces (infantry, tanks, weapon, ammunition, fuel, food, backend infrastructure, and so on etc) over the sea to have a real fight.

And you are wrong. No comparisons are needed other than the comparison of 60 year old war tech and today's war tech.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

Dead on...CD...the U.S. dicussed Berlin and for multiple reasons they made the decision (primarily because of Ike's input) to allow the Russians to take Berlin and withhold our forces from taking Berlin.

Right in my yard, two mouses has discussed should they let a fat cat cross the grassy plot, or should they attack it. And you know, for multiple reasons they made the decision (primarily because of whit mouse input) to allow the cat to got where it want.

What exactly the USA were do if they decide to not allow the Russians to take Berlin, ah?

Just curious

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

Man, how much time it has took? Has it been done within a day, week or may be a month? Ah? Now imagine an oversea military operation against multi-million army. Try to follow my logic...

I see your logic. But the fact that millions of tons of munitions and military armaments WERE brought over and used negates your point completely. "easier" doesn't really factor into it, because easier or not the US along with GB and all of their allies made it happen. To say "it was too far for them, they did not have a real fight" is simply incorrect on all counts. It obviously wasn't too far for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

BTW, as about lend-lease, so it wasn't a help. It was a business, and the USSR has paid in GOLD for it. We were dying, you were making money. Not a bad role in the World War. I'm totally agree with you.

Yes it was "a help", a major help at that, and it came at a crucial time for Russia to mount a much needed counter offensive, and then maintain that offensive. no, it wasn't a gift free of charge, and yes Russia did pay it back.

It may not have been a gift but that doesn't change the fact that it was the USA and to a lesser degree Canada sending help. Lend-lease was also done with GB and several other countries who needed war materials from the US, not just Russia.

I looked up "lend-lease WWII quotes" and found this: "Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference in 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations could never have won the war.""

Patton, upon hearing this, was reported to have muttered "No shit, Sherlock" under his breath, but this is unconfirmed. :D

theking · 05-25-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

Man, how much time it has took? Has it been done within a day, week or may be a month? Ah? Now imagine an oversea military operation against multi-million army. Try to follow my logic...

BTW, as about lend-lease, so it wasn't a help. It was a business, and the USSR has paid in GOLD for it. We were dying, you were making money. Not a bad role in the World War. I'm totally agree with you.

If I am not mistaken...and I don't think I am...England is the only country to repay the U.S. for the lend/lease it incurred during the Second World War...and they did not complete payment untill 2006.

theking · 05-25-2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

Right in my yard, two mouses has discussed should they let a fat cat cross the grassy plot, or should they attack it. And you know, for multiple reasons they made the decision (primarily because of whit mouse input) to allow the cat to got where it want.

What exactly the USA were do if they decide to not allow the Russians to take Berlin, ah?

Just curious

Obvious answer...take it ourselves...instead of purposely holding our forces back too allow the Russians to put themselves in a position to take Berlin.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

And you are wrong. No comparisons are needed other than the comparison of 60 year old war tech and today's war tech.

You have to re-read it through carefully. I said it was very hard those days and actually it's still hard today. Please don't tell me nothing about "modern tech war" and other computer game-related nonsense. Simple take a look at the war in Afghanistan. Do you think the USA and NATO will still be able to continue it if they lose all possible ways to supply the war (I mean the base in Kyrgyzstan, the transits through Russia and Pakistan etc)? You will be surprised, but the NATO command doesn't share your optimism.

As about 60 years ago, the REAL oversea war against well trained and equipped multimillion army was even not worth a science fiction story, because there was nothing scientific in that fantastic idea.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Yes it was "a help", a major help at that, and it came at a crucial time for Russia to mount a much needed counter offensive, and then maintain that offensive. no, it wasn't a gift free of charge, and yes Russia did pay it back.

It's like if I sell you an anti-dote when you will be bitten by a snake. You can call it a help or whatever. I will call it a business. A bit inhumane business, but money has no smell, right?

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

Obvious answer...take it ourselves...instead of purposely holding our forces back too allow the Russians to put themselves in a position to take Berlin.

How many American forces were able to start a battle over Berlin? How many Nazy forces were concentrated there? Read some book man, at least ask wikipedia.

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

If I am not mistaken...and I don't think I am...England is the only country to repay the U.S. for the lend/lease it incurred during the Second World War...and they did not complete payment untill 2006.

Several sources on the web say the war debt Russia owed the US was finally repaid in full as of 2009.

Quote:

The United States supplied war materials to the Soviet Union (and England) through a program known as Lend-Lease. The initial shipment of equipment was paid for with gold, with subsequent shipments being financed through a series of foreign debt credits. It is important to understand that there was no exchange rate between the Soviet ruble and the US dollar, so valuation of the material was problematic. Nonetheless, the Soviets agreed to a structured repayment plan set forth by the United States.
When the Soviet Union ceased to exist in 1991, Russia was not obligated to repay Soviet debts; however, they did so anyways (primarily to maintain the country's credit rating). Russia completed repayment of these debts on March 27th, 2009, in accordance with the terms set forth in the previous agreement.
So, to answer your question directly, Russia has already paid it's debts and any interest would have been factored into the debt credit repayment scheme.

I wonder what sort of debt the N Koreans will owe the world should they decide to start more trouble over there. This ain't the 50's and I doubt China or Russia will back them today.

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

It's like if I sell you an anti-dote when you will be bitten by a snake. You can call it a help or whatever. I will call it a business. A bit inhumane business, but money has no smell, right?

War itself is inhumane. War is also business.

theking · 05-25-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

How many American forces were able to start a battle over Berlin? How many Nazy forces were concentrated there? Read some book man, at least ask wikipedia.

We intentionally held back our forces...so that the Russians could advance and position themselves to take Berlin. The decision was made for multiple reasons...one of them being...let the Russians die taking Berlin...instead of U.S. boys dying. Much of the decision to allow the Russians to advance and take Berlin was due to General Eisenhower's input.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Several sources on the web say the war debt Russia owed the US was finally repaid in full as of 2009.

So it was "help" for money, right? That it's much easier to earn the money rather to die in the battle? Don't you agree?

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

You have to re-read it through carefully. I said it was very hard those days and actually it's still hard today.

I never once mentioned computer games in any form. I'm talking about real aircraft carriers with enough fighters and ammo to decimate any location on the planet, right up close and personal. I'm talking about subs and destroyers and cruise missiles and bombers you never even see. If you really believe it's "difficult" for the U.S. to go anywhere it wants to, you are very mistaken.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

We intentionally held back our forces

What "forces" are you talking about? Can you call some numbers: how many troops, tanks etc the USA have in Europe that time?

theking · 05-25-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Several sources on the web say the war debt Russia owed the US was finally repaid in full as of 2009.

I wonder what sort of debt the N Koreans will owe the world should they decide to start more trouble over there. This ain't the 50's and I doubt China or Russia will back them today.

I stand corrected...CD.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

I never once mentioned computer games in any form. I'm talking about real aircraft carriers with enough fighters and ammo to decimate any location on the planet, right up close and personal. I'm talking about subs and destroyers and cruise missiles and bombers you never even see. If you really believe it's "difficult" for the U.S. to go anywhere it wants to, you are very mistaken.

This is not a way to win a war. Look at NK, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. No war can be won w/o a land operation. In modern times, both countries (the USA and Russia) have enough nukes to wipe all the military infrastructure of each other a few times in a raw. But what's next? Think of it.

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

This is not a way to win a war. Look at NK, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. No war can be won w/o a land operation. In modern times, both countries (the USA and Russia) have enough nukes to wipe all the military infrastructure of each other a few times in a raw. But what's next? Think of it.

Of course you need ground troops. I just don't understand why you think the U.S. would have a "hard time" reaching Europe today. That makes no sense. We use Frankfurt to refuel flights to the mid-east as we speak. Europe is our gas station.

just a punk · 05-25-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

If you really believe it's "difficult" for the U.S. to go anywhere it wants to, you are very mistaken.

No it's you the one who is very mistaken. The USA can not go anywhere. Actually it can not go into the biggest part of the World. For example it can't go to Russia, China and India for the reason I mentioned in my previous post.

Amputate Your Head · 05-25-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

No it's you the one who very mistaken. The USA can not go anywhere. Actually it can not go into the biggest part of the World. For example it can't go to Russia, China and India for the reason I mentioned in my previous post.

*sigh*

I was speaking in the context of war. Nevermind.

CDSmith · 05-25-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

So it was "help" for money, right? That it's much easier to earn the money rather to die in the battle? Don't you agree?

You seem to be having a problem with the "repayment" part of the the lend-lease "help" scenario. Tell me, if you were to go to your bank for "help" would they give you money free and clear? No. Would they still consider any sort of loan as helping you even though it requires repayment?

The US had not one but two major wars to consider. A country tends to need to keep their economy alive in order to fight such world wars. Trashing one's own economy in order to help another country in it's time of need wouldn't really have been very smart now would it?

Fact is at the time Russia needed help. Lend-lease was the best plan available at the tiime, something designed to provide that help yet keep things fair economically. It's not like there was a long list of countries lined up offering the Russians thousands of tons of much-needed war materials. Only a few, and those few were well-invested in the war themselves and thus could not afford to just give billions away freely without a repayment agreement. Had the roles been reversed is it your contention that Russia would have given freely of it's supplies?

Come now, let's be real.

05-25-2010, 12:43 PM	#102
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	sortie, I just have to know... do you also consider the "why" details of Pearl Harbor to be irrelevant? __________________ SIG TOO BIG

05-25-2010, 12:54 PM	#107
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	My take on N Korea, If not for their nukes their "army of 1.2 million" would seem a lot less imposing. A lot less. Personnel are still important but these countries with large armies but little to no modern equipment aren't nearly as imposing as their numbers suggest. Today wars are won with planes, carriers, tomahawks, smart bombs, precision air strikes. In the past the boots hit the ground first. Nowadays when the boots hit the ground the war is already all but won. N Korean leader is a psycho, plain and simple. But he's mostly a sabre rattler. Hopefully it doesn't come to anything more than that but if it does I have no doubt it would be a very grave mistake (for N Korea).... Every time I view that vid I can't help saying: FuuUUUuuucKKKKkkkkk :D 1.2 million ill-equiped N Koreans (and quite a few of their civilians too I'm sure) would be in for a shit-storm sized world of hurt. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

05-25-2010, 01:22 PM	#112
Davy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,323	Man, people are so stupid. Someone is going to push the big red button soon... __________________ --- ICQ 14-76-98 <-- I don't use this at all

05-25-2010, 01:26 PM	#115
Andy CHOOPA Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Red Bank NJ Posts: 1,156	Hope it doesnt go down. __________________ Andy Choopa ICQ: 412-203-056 DUAL XEONS W/100 Mbps UNMETERED- $199/ month!!